THE NIALL MCGUIRK INTERVIEW

On The Connections Between Punk Music, Community, Art, Activism and Vegan Food By Claudette Vaughan Niall McGuirk wrote this cool cookbook called ‘Please Feed Me – a punk vegan cookbook”. In addition to having great recipes that Niall speaks about here, we further grilled him on punk ideology and where does punk and animal rights meet. Here’s that interview.

Abolitionist: If the anti-establishment ethos of punk music/food/life/living creates a community that is closed off from mainstream society, that can’t effect mainstream society, who wins?

Niall McGuirk: Wow, that’s a pretty loaded question to start off with and demanding a hypothetical answer. I can’t really answer it as I would not like to see the anti-establishment ethos that you are talking about creating a community closed off from the mainstream. Anything that is questioning the mainstream is automatically outside it but my punk, my resistance is one of inclusivity and I don’t want to be cut off from the mainstream.

I want everyone to turn vegan, I want to see the resources of the world being used and utilised by all the people (and animals) on the planet. I don’t want to be closed off from society but I don’t want to be the society that encourages abuse.

Abolitionist: The Punk Generation of the 80’s set itself up to challenge/reject societies norms. Did it succeed?

Niall McGuirk: What are societies norms today compared to the 80’s? If you have the answer to that then you have the answer to the above. People in western society are more accepting of others today but prejudice still remains. My punk is about doing things for ourselves and not relying on others to make the changes we wish for. I still have as much reason now to shout as I did in the eighties. Instead of Nicaragua it is Iraq.

Many things have changed since the 80’s. The Ireland I live in has a lot more money, jobs aren’t scarce - veganism is not as alien now as it was then, animal experiments continue but not to the extent as before but is that down to punk? I think not.

I think the punk scene of today has changed to reflect that. There seems to be an emphasis on finance in punk that was not there in the eighties – people are expecting to make a living from their music whereas before they wanted to play and spread a message.

Abolitionist: Punk in the 80’s was a formidable voice of opposition for a time. They knew they were inheritors of the white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist world order. They were aware of the dangerous implications of judging success and failure solely on materialistic values, conforming to the model of turning everything, including animals, into commodities. Will the Punk Movement rise again?

Niall McGuirk: I don’t think the punk movement will rise again in the way it did however I think the (anti-) globalisation of the world and its citizens will become a bigger movement than punk and hopefully will inspire people in ways that punk music did.

Abolitionist: Another thing Punk addressed, which has been weakened by a false media image seeing Punks as a political threat, is Punks knew that anyone who truly believes in peace should reject patriotism. Your thoughts Niall?

Niall McGuirk: The punk I listened to were songs about breaking down borders. Coming from Ireland that had a particular interest as this island is split into two countries. The Ireland I grew up in was a nationalistic place and most of my peers believe that this island should be one country. I saw how patriotism damages families and how being ruled by Dublin or London wasn’t the issue it was how we rule ourselves that is important. There is an obvious difference to me between believing in your culture (which is important) and believing in patriotism. My culture is mine, no better or worse than others but it is what identifies me.

Abolitionist: Rebellion and the Anti-Establishment ethos suits the AR/Liberation paradigm. Can the Punk Movement of today contribute to the future of the AR Movement?

Niall McGuirk: I think people in the punk movement can continue to contribute to the AR movement. Some punk bands sing about AR issues in their songs. Some bands have stalls at their gigs to try and spread the message and then some people in bands do their own individual actions.

As a movement I’m not sure if it can contribute but most certainly individuals can. I think it is important to identify with people individually and not as part of some movement. There may be a common bond but the punk community is extremely diverse and ranges from wild hunters to vegan pacifists.

Abolitionist: What was life like in Ireland before you set up the co-op ‘Hope’?

Niall McGuirk: Before I answer I wish to state that none of the changes in Irish society in the past 20 years should or can be attributed to Hope. Basically Ireland has transformed itself in the past 20 years. It was a homely individual country 20 years ago, now it is highly industrialised and its cities are almost like many UK main shopping areas.

I was involved in putting my first gig on in 1984. I used the word Hope from around 1987. We used to ensure that gigs were over by 11 pm so people could get the last bus home, which left at 11.30. Nowadays that doesn’t seem to be an issue for people.

Not many bands came to Ireland unless they were put on by big time promoters. There was a very small independent scene but no network of promoters around the country. Nowadays there are people all over Ireland willing to put on gigs independently and bands can tour the country with relative ease. However the big time promoters are putting on more gigs than ever.

Vegetarianism wasn’t that big and for many the image of a person who didn’t eat meat was one of a longhaired hippy with a fondness for lentils, brown rice and the 60’s. Vegans were pretty much unheard of and vegan families certainly were not publicised.

Back then it was the norm for people to leave the country after they finished school. That was their guarantee of finding employment. Unemployment as a percentage was in its mid teens, now it is approx. 4%.

Most of my friends didn’t go to college, now most of the people who were in my secondary (high) school look to go to college.

Interest Rates were over 10% for people looking to buy houses which averaged approx. €40,000 – now they are 3.5% and house prices average €400,000. Ireland has transformed itself over the past twenty years and now people have direct access to endless information through the internet.

Abolitionist: Tell us how your book ‘Please Feed Me – a punk, vegan cookbook’ came into being?

Niall McGuirk: The Hope Collective used to have weekly meetings and I said at a meeting one week that we should document what we are doing as it would be a good way of letting the outside world know about what was happening in Dublin. There was about 12 people at the meeting so we threw some ideas around and decided it’d be good to have it as a cookbook also. At many of the gigs we put on we laid out leaflets and also gave out free vegan food.

We also had collectively or individually been producing fanzines for years so when we wanted to document what we had been involved in we felt that a book would be a good way of doing it. I felt that just by telling the story there would be a lot of repetition and as some of the collective had been vegan for a number of years I suggested that we get recipes from the bands that we had put on. I felt that it’d be nice for the bands to have an input so I set about trying to contact all the bands we had promoted. At that stage we were still putting on gigs so any band from that point on were harassed into submitting something when they stayed over here in Ireland.

I collated the recipes and got stories for each gig and put it all together in a diary format. Each gig has a recipe and the story behind it. I did the initial layout myself and arranged for its printing. I published it in Ireland and called it “Document: A story of Hope”.

I sold the initial pressing of 500 in 3 weeks and got another 500 done up. These went within another two months so the final 500 were done up and some made their way over to the US care of Last Gasp, AK Press and Dischord. Richard Nash at Soft Skull got a copy and he asked could they print it in the US. After some discussions about the merits of doing it over there it was agreed that the book would be called “Please Feed Me” and would have a different layout (done by somebody who knows what they are doing) but the same content. The original one is now completely sold out and Please Feed Me is available form Soft Skull Press.

Abolitionist: Isn’t punk alot like anarchist thought?

Niall McGuirk: It could be, maybe it depends on what we do with our own reality. A lot of people involved in punk (or certainly the political end of punk music) have an interest in anarchism. For some it is sloganeering and for others it is a way of life.

Abolitionist: I kind of run into a problem when I use the term “community” to describe one people (Punks) with one thing in common – because of the individuality factor. How would you define the characteristics of Punk?

Niall McGuirk: Impossible!!! My punk could be different to your punk but for me Punk is about being true to yourself and others. To me punk is more of a community than a movement. Movements signify a common aim or cause, whereas punks as I mentioned before are an extremely diverse bunch of people that can exist in a similar community.

There was a band called Flux of Punk Indians who used to sing about striving to survive causing least suffering possible and that’s the way I try to live my life. My punk is my every day life, raising my kids a certain way, making the purchases that I do and treating others the way I would like to be treated.

Abolitionist: Punks question conformity not only by looking and sounding different (which as debatable importance) but by questioning prevailing modes of thought. Still, there are plenty of humanocentric punks ‘out there’. What are your thoughts on that Niall?

Niall McGuirk: You’ve really got me thinking with this. I have a 7 month old baby that wakes up every morning between 4 and 5 a.m. to play, so human centric punks don’t take up too much of my time.

However you may be pointing towards contradictions with your question and all our lives are a mix of contradictions. I don’t buy records that are brought out on major labels yet I go to see some movies that are made in Hollywood. I don’t eat animals but travel in a car that damages the environment and animals. I don’t conform to the look and sound that you describe in your question and many punks don’t.

Again I can point you towards my own opinion that my punk is my every day life, raising my kids a certain way, making the purchases that I do and treating others the way I would like to be treated.

Abolitionist: Straight Edge. Your thoughts?

Niall McGuirk: I don’t drink alcohol or smoke. Does that mean I’m straight edge? I don’t feel that I am as Straight Edge to me was a very good song released many years ago. I took from it that it’s ok to be an individual and stand out from the crowd. Growing up in Ireland in the 80’s all my friends drank alcohol. I wasn’t interested and preferred to buy records instead. It then became important to me as I saw friends and family ruining parts of their lives (as well as many more who weren’t).

Some people took the song straight edge to typify a movement with rules and regulations. I don’t like the idea of that. It is interesting to see that it has evolved into abstaining from meat but also interesting to see that those people who become straight edge to be part of a movement invariably end up eating meat and drinking alcohol.

Abolitionist: The support of action over lobbying has a strong tradition in the Punk Movement. Politically minded Punks have viewed our treatment of animals as another of the many forms of oppression. Many Punks support the actions of the ALF. Where are you on this?

Niall McGuirk: I used to be a strong advocate of the ALF but in recent years my feelings have changed. Since my children were born my outlook on life has transformed. I now realise that there is more going on in the world than my own interests. I would hate to see ill fall on my children as a result of anything I do. I feel that I am a pacifist and believe that wars are wrong, no-one wins. Some people involved in the ALF are extremely committed individuals but I also saw some people getting involved in the ALF just to cause destruction, the reasons behind it were secondary. That, to me, is wrong.

Abolitionist: Why and when did you become a vegan?

Niall McGuirk: I became vegan in 1989. I had been vegetarian since 1984 and it just seemed logical that I would cut out all meat products form my diet. I didn’t like the idea of an animal having to suffer for my pleasure. It is not a matter of survival or necessity. I was thinking about it for over a year. I was ignorant to the fact that cows need to be impregnated to produce milk, I didn’t think about calves being taken away from their mothers.

There is as much cruelty involved in the dairy and egg industry as meat, to me they are all part of suffering. I finally made the jump when I was told that I was allergic to eggs and fish (I didn’t eat either) as well as dairy. I cut out the dairy, felt NO better but my mind felt much clearer.

Abolitionist: The recipes in your cookbook are great but tell me what is rutabaga. An Irish parsnip perhaps?

Niall McGuirk: In Ireland we have turnips, the yellow ones are sometimes called swede. There is a lovely recipe in the book for Baked Turnips, but baked swede has a better ring to it. When I gave the original over to Soft Skull publishing in the US they informed me that rutabaga was the US for swede – just like eggplant is aubergine, lima beans are butter beans, zucchini is courgette etc etc.

Abolitionist: How hard was it to collect the recipes?

Niall McGuirk: I started putting the book together in 1996 and finished it in 2002. It proved a lot harder than I was expecting. I had been involved in putting on gigs since 1984 so I had to try and track people down who I had last spoken to over 10 years previously. I tried the old phone numbers I had; I wrote to record labels and started doing internet searching (not as extensive then as it is now). I started using my first e-mail address. Some people proved elusive, I decided that I would ask those who I could trace to submit a recipe or story. This request was made twice if I heard nothing back and left at that.

Some people needed gentle reminding about deadlines but most proved amenable to the idea. After receiving all the information I learned how to use a software package called Quark Express and I put the book together using this. This took a great deal of time and proved extremely difficult. It was my first time using the software and expecting an end result of a book on my first use was wishful thinking.

Abolitionist: What was Hope’s legacy do you think?

Niall McGuirk: Other people have asked me about that and I usually say that I am the wrong person to ask that question of. I am not involved in doing gigs and Hope as a gig collective has stagnated. I still sell some fanzines and use the word Hope for that. I am putting together a vegan family week diary and will use the name Hope for that.

Hope put on over 280 bands in Dublin over a 10 year period. We got bands to come over and do Irish tours. Prior to that there were very few independently promoted gigs in Ireland. We put out a compilation 12” and published some fanzines and a book. I wouldn’t call that a legacy just a statement of what we were involved in.

Abolitionist: Any last thoughts we haven’t covered?

Niall McGuirk: Thank you so much for the thought provoking questions. Being vegan for so long it has meant that I haven’t really questioned what I am doing and why I’m doing it for a few years now. It is good that we all look into our actions and understand the reasons behind them. We do so many things out of habit that it’s good to look into exactly WHY we are what we are.

If you wanna discuss any of this, email Niall on: niallmcguirk@yahoo.com

Click here to read Chris Underload's review of "Please Feed Me - A Punk Vegan Cookbook" by Niall McGuirk